Technically, the New Supra is Actually an MR2

"way2blu does a rev update" (way2blu) 07/09/2019 at 13:13 • Filed to: Change my mind, mr2, supra, toyota mr2, toyota supra, Front-mid-engine is still mid-engine

2

59

It’s mid-engine, RWD, and seats 2.

Yes, front-mid counts. Toyota never said anything about the engine being behind the seats.

No previous Supra had all 3 of those characteristics. Supras were GT-ish while MR2s were supercar-ish. The New Supra is more of an MR2 than an Old Supra.

The New Supra is a handling/balance sports car, while the Old Supra was a muscle car/ponycar. Sure the new one still has Supra proportions, but has more of an MR2 ethos and mission.

Toyota actually builds the Real 2020 Supra, and it’s not outsourced to BMW:

Too heavy? Seats 4? Lots of horsepower? Yes, yes, and kinda yes. A turbo version, iF it happens, would be the true successor to the MKIV Supra.

That’s my Internet Opinion about Cars I Have Not Yet Driven, and I am prepared to defend this lukewarm take in the comments section with great enthusiasm!

HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute > way2blu does a rev update 07/09/2019 at 13:15

1

no

way2blu does a rev update > HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute 07/09/2019 at 13:18

1

Yes

nerd_racing > way2blu does a rev update 07/09/2019 at 13:18

6

Having owned an AW11, your take is off.  Midship Runabout 2 seater is the “MR2" designation, but man, spiritually, hard no. 

boredalways > way2blu does a rev update 07/09/2019 at 13:21

1

1st point: it’s a mid-engine BMW Z4.

2nd point: you’re spot on when talking about the Lexus. Even Sarah-n-tuned agrees*

* IMHO, I think she needs another lady to banter with.  Then again, I'm way too old for her target demographic.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > way2blu does a rev update 07/09/2019 at 13:22

0

There are a few big stretches here but the biggest is calling the MR2 supercar-ish

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > way2blu does a rev update 07/09/2019 at 13:23

15

technically the new supra is

out of my budget

MarquetteLa > way2blu does a rev update 07/09/2019 at 13:24

1

I wholeheartedly agree that the Lexus LC should have been the new Supra.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > way2blu does a rev update 07/09/2019 at 13:25

9

the center of mass of the engine behind the front axle line, is not amidships.

“ front-mid” is a colloquialism for just having a properly engineered longitudinal front-engined car driving the rear wheels.

What always killed me, is why so few front-wheel drive cars place the engine behind the transaxle and front axle line.

And why Toyota hasn’t updated and improved Hybrid Synergy Drive to full PHEV with a full-speed electric-only mode, put it behind the driver, and made an affordable MR2... i8 is criticized for not having enough power. i8 power levels at MR2 prices, minus the luxury and carbon fiber monocoque stuff, would be a hit at prices to compete with and conquer 370Z.

Cash Rewards > way2blu does a rev update 07/09/2019 at 13:27

1

Agree on the Lexus, for sure

Thomas Donohue > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 07/09/2019 at 13:31

0

I was thinking the same thing, but it did kinda have a boy-racer budget supercar look . And it was designed by an F1 driver.

Still a stretch.

way2blu does a rev update > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 07/09/2019 at 13:40

2

I guess I’m recalling incorrectly; thought I’d read somewhere that the whole B58 was behind the front axle, thus allowing for a lower center of mass than the 86/BRZ despite the taller engine.

Honestly, someday I’d like to take an i8 (used & depreciated to $25k, give it a couple more years) and take out all batteries, electric motors, luxury features, etc., and drop in a healthy 2.0T + 6MT. Would be way quicker than stock, lighter, and possibly get better real-world fuel economy too.

way2blu does a rev update > boredalways 07/09/2019 at 13:43

3

ZR2!

Wait no... what have we done?!?

Spanfeller is a twat > way2blu does a rev update 07/09/2019 at 13:43

2

Googles “2JZ swapped Lexus LC” 

way2blu does a rev update > nerd_racing 07/09/2019 at 13:45

1

Tbh, my W20 is the least “MR2” of any MR2 generation (too heavy, lots of trunk space) but it’s closer to the new Supra than the old Supra. I agree not all MR2s are that same vibe.

way2blu does a rev update > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 07/09/2019 at 13:45

4

I can’t even afford to SIT IN an Old Supra, let alone a New Supra.

Decay buys too many beaters > way2blu does a rev update 07/09/2019 at 13:48

0

FMR requires the entire engine with accessories to be behind the front axle. Anything else is front engine. The new Supra is front engine. 

fite me. 

nerd_racing > way2blu does a rev update 07/09/2019 at 13:51

8

Now you’re bringing Pontiac into this?? 

VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely > way2blu does a rev update 07/09/2019 at 13:52

2

One counterpoint - the MSRP of the Supra Turbo in 94 was around 42800. Based on $42,800 in 1994  $73,959.09 in 2019, that’s more the price range of the RC-F, which has some parallels to the Turbo as well - same engine as the LC , too heavy, more of a racey cruiser than a cruisey racer, and was the upscale trim of an existing base model line.

I think it fits better mechanically even if the design aesthetic doesn’t .

way2blu does a rev update > nerd_racing 07/09/2019 at 14:05

6

I mean the ZZW30 MR2s do  have the exact same engine as the Vibe...

nerd_racing > way2blu does a rev update 07/09/2019 at 14:26

4

way2blu does a rev update > nerd_racing 07/09/2019 at 14:30

11

One like and I’ll put a 2ZZ in a Fiero

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > way2blu does a rev update 07/09/2019 at 14:42

1

I don’t see how an I6 engine is entirely behind the virtual line defined by the two front wheel centers. The chassis cradle may extend forward of the engine block, allowing the block to be lower than if it were on top of the chassis crossmember, but the axle line isn’t the same thing. the line between the front wheel hubs (and the rear wheel hubs) becomes a fulcrum for a moment arm to act as a lever. keeping the weight low and between them keeps them cancelling each other out. adding mass on top of, or in front of that line acts in different ways on that lever and fulcrum principle

Oh, and stripping down an i8 to be an ICE car only... not only may not be possible, but would defeat the purpose even more than putting a pushrod 2-valve V8 in an RX7 to replace the rotary engine it had as it’s trademark and reason to exist.

And I highly doubt it would get better real world fuel economy than a PHEV drivetrain, unless the ICE car was being babied with hypermiling techniques , an the i8 was ramrodded in sport mode at all times, even with the battery and luxury weight.

Saracen > way2blu does a rev update 07/09/2019 at 18:10

1

I have no desire for the GR Supra.

The LC500 though.  OMG, I want one bad.  It’s stunning, and the cockpit is fantastic.

superdave847 > nerd_racing 07/09/2019 at 23:19

1

This was the obvious question.

IamTheEagle > way2blu does a rev update 07/09/2019 at 23:58

0

I believe it was Car and Driver that proved Toyotas claim that the Supra has a lower center of gravity is a complete lie. The 86's center of gravity it 1.75" lower than the Supra if I remember right.

IamTheEagle > way2blu does a rev update 07/10/2019 at 00:19

0

What a stupid article. The 2020 Supra has a 50/50 weight distribution and a front mid mounted engine, therefore MR2. Go home, you're drunk.

Dbruner925 > way2blu does a rev update 07/10/2019 at 02:41

0

Wait, are you saying the new supra is not turbo? Because it most definitely is.

RT > way2blu does a rev update 07/10/2019 at 06:21

0

If a FMR layout makes a car mid-engine d, that means the Corvette has been mid-engined since the C2. In fact , nearly every pre-WWII car would be considered mid-engined if you used the same rule . The general consensus is that these cars are not mid-engined , so I think it’s a bit of a technicality to be resting on .

Toyota also made a car with more a GT-like character alongside the Supra; the Soarer. I’d agree the Supra was pretty bulky, but it was still the fastest Toyota available for a good portion of time. I’d say it has more of a supercar-like character than the MR2 too, since the Supra was always positioned more upmarket . Only the second generation MR2s reached a comparable level of performance to the t win t urbo Supras , and even then, these were humbly priced four-cylinder cars — not supercars.

I’ll give you the point about  seating , but I don’t think that’s enough to link the new car to the MR2 alone.

kirkm76 > MarquetteLa 07/10/2019 at 06:27

0

Yeah but the LC should actually be the SC.

kirkm76 > RT 07/10/2019 at 06:29

1

The Soarer/Lexus SC are, imho, the best looking cars to come out of the 90s.

MultiplaOrgasms > way2blu does a rev update 07/10/2019 at 06:32

1

Isn’t the Supra a six-cylinder Celica? Isn’t the four cylinder Supra a Celica? 

kirkm76 > way2blu does a rev update 07/10/2019 at 06:36

0

The original Supra was a Celica with a big engine. As such, the most “purist” answer would have been the 86 with a bigger and/or turbocharged engine.

I doubt any inline 6 would fit but in my opinion, a turbo V6 from Toyota in an 86 with a premium interior and a more GT type handling set up would be a more "pure" Supra than a "Body by Toyota" BMW.

kirkm76 > way2blu does a rev update 07/10/2019 at 06:37

3

I want to put a Leaf driveline in a Fiero.

90supraowner > way2blu does a rev update 07/10/2019 at 08:34

0

The mr2 was just a cheap mi de engine car like a Fiero. Supra was built as close to 50/50 on weight distribution after 1986-1998 It may have been more like a muscle car then an mr2. But no mr2 would walk away from a Supra on a track or raod.

Nauraushaun > way2blu does a rev update 07/10/2019 at 09:58

5

FRONT MID DOES NOT COUNT

way2blu does a rev update > Nauraushaun 07/10/2019 at 11:07

1

Idk man, Toyota never specified it had to be in the back... “Mid-engine” typically evokes the supercar-ish vibes and rear-mid proportions, but the term isn’t exclusively reserved for such cars 

#FrontMidEngineIsMidEngineToo

TommyRocker > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 07/10/2019 at 14:14

0

Putting the engine behind the front axle in a fwd car would put it right in your lap. One of the key benefits to fwd is less cabin encroachment. 

bimbombash > MultiplaOrgasms 07/10/2019 at 15:02

0

I agree on you

4cyl supra is celica, 6cyl supra is celica supra, lexus lc is soarer, 86 is 86 ...

Toyota already gave us back the legends. Although imperfect or even dissapp ointing for some of us

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > way2blu does a rev update 07/10/2019 at 15:13

0

Front mid does not count. Completely different driving dynamics vs a proper rear-mid setup. Yes the engine is technically between the axles but it is totally different to drive.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > TommyRocker 07/10/2019 at 15:24

0

Not if you lengthen the wheelbase, and reduce the front over-hang...

Or in other words, put the front wheels at the front of the car.

Most current FWD cars have substantial front overhang , and the wheel wells encroach on the footwells in the interior, to accommodate for the engine and cooling system ahead of the front axle, and a cab-forward layout.

way2blu does a rev update > kirkm76 07/10/2019 at 18:08

0

https://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/cto/d/vista-1984-pontiac-fiero-electric-car/6929865012.html

Conscious robot > Saracen 07/10/2019 at 18:46

1

Been drooling over that masterpiece since the day I first laid eyes on it. Gorgeous machine. 

Saracen > Conscious robot 07/10/2019 at 18:55

0

A friend of mine sold his Ferrari California not long ago and got an LC500.  He loves it.  I need to check it out one of these days.

Nauraushaun > way2blu does a rev update 07/10/2019 at 19:01

4

FRONT MID IS PEOPLE WHO DON’T HAVE MID ENGINED CARS LYING TO THEMSELVES

It’s a thing, but it doesn’t mean the car will have crazy mid-engined handling characteristics, which is what “mid-engined” implies.

way2blu does a rev update > Nauraushaun 07/10/2019 at 19:06

1

Hahahaha, but it’s called the “MR2" and not the “SnapOversteersIntoAHedge...”

By your “handling characteristics” definition of an MR2, an ‘80s Porsche 911 Turbo is also an MR2 ;)

World Eater > way2blu does a rev update 07/10/2019 at 20:14

0

H ow much does it weigh a gain?

Ya, that's not an MR2.

Nauraushaun > way2blu does a rev update 07/10/2019 at 22:48

0

It’s more MR2 than a bloody Supra!

bhtooefr > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 07/10/2019 at 23:34

0

I think the reason for FWD cars putting the engine ahead of the axle centerline is meant to improve manifold packaging (especially with rear exhaust) as well as crash safety.

With front exhaust, you have to route the exhaust pipe somewhere under the oil pan and transmission. Additionally, you have airflow through the engine compartment that’s cooling down the catalytic converter, which is bad for emissions.

With rear exhaust, the catalytic converter (and any turbos) are nestled between the engine and axles. This keeps things nice and warm (the turbos have ways of staying cool on their own).

The crash safety part of this basically boils down to... when you’re in a crash, the engine is a huge lump of relatively solid metal that you need to move away from the passengers before it punches through the firewall. Subframe design is set up to shove the engine down out the bottom of the engine bay, but that needs some space, and having the engine right up against the firewall takes that space away.

Also, if your chassis design supports a V6, you need to push the wheels further out to the corners, which may require a longer nose than with the wheels back.

That said, the Toyota/Scion iQ did have an engine with front exhaust, canted forward, mounted behind the differential:

As far as a full PHEV HSD, it sure would be nice to see... although, the way it works, full-speed electric mode is inherently im possible unless you artificially limit the top speed of the vehicle . (Basically, for a given forward speed with the engine at 0 RPM, MG1 will be at a given negative reverse speed to maintain the 0 RPM engine. That speed is a compromise between getting MG1 revved up fast enough to take meaningful power off the engine when it’s running, and getting to the point where MG1 limits electric top speed.)

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > bhtooefr 07/11/2019 at 00:36

0

90+% of front drive, transverse-inline engine cars, have exhaust manifolds on the “front” side of the engine toward the radiator, and intake on the back toward the firewall. The exhaust does route down and under the oil pan and transaxle, or at least under the off-side longer axle shaft.

head crossflow direction is somewhat independent of which side of the engine block the transaxle output is on, as long as the packaging is planned.

Catalytic converters are mounted under the floor, and are exposed to under-car airflow anyway, and generate excess heat that if un-checked would burn or melt components of the car, and in some cases have caught dry grass on fire when cars are parked or left running off of road surfaces.

transverse V-engines have exhaust on both the front and back, of course. V-6 engines are actually usually shorter in length (across the width of the car, hence transverse) than an inline-4, and the transaxle is along side the crankshaft behind the engine block either way. the wheels aren’t any further apart, or further back. Many, many FWD cars are optioned with both an i4 and V6 options, with no change in wheelbase or track width, and both have the same front overhang.

Crumple zones wad up the drivetrain and front subframe into the firewall anyway, not much difference in terms of whether the transaxle is on the front side or the back side, or whether the exhaust is front, back, or both.

Scion iQ has barely a motorcycle engine, and in reality, should have been rear engined and rear drive like the Smart ForTwo.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > kirkm76 07/11/2019 at 00:44

0

I want to put a tuned up Voltec 2 drivetrain in a Fiero, with re-calibrated controllers for a bit more electric torque output and quicker response. Electric mode, regen/direct drive mode, low torque high efficiency parallel hybrid, and high-torque parallel hybrid modes.

bhtooefr > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 07/11/2019 at 00:45

0

That depends greatly on the brand.

As an example, all the way back to the 1970s, Volkswagen’s “larger” engines (that is, the Audi 80-derived ones, 1.5-2.0 liter ) are rear exhaust (and on the older ones, rear intake, too). Some of the smaller ones have been front exhaust, though.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > bhtooefr 07/11/2019 at 01:01

0

Let’s see...

Modern VW, Audi, Mini, Nissan, Honda (although Honda engines turn the opposite direction, IIRC), Toyota, Mazda, all GM brands, Ford/Mercury/Lincon, Chrysler/Plymouth/Dodge, Volvo, and almost everything else since the mid 1970s and later ... all package transverse inline engines pretty much the same way with the t ransaxle output behind the block, exhaust out the front side of the cylinder head.

Crossflow cylinder heads have become pretty much standard as well, to keep exhaust heat out of the intake manifold to keep the oxygen density higher with a cooler air charge, not to mention port geometry issues with all ports on the same side of the head, and cam/valve geometry.

That lack of independent development is probably one of the reasons why they don’t have the transaxle output and virtual axle line in front of the engine.

The old VW/Audis you mention, and maybe some old longitudinal Saabs, and rear-drive-deleted FWD Subarus, and the big GM Olds Toronado and Caddy Eldorado, and the even older Cord 812 are the very few outliers for FWD layout design.

Terrible Gerbil > way2blu does a rev update 07/11/2019 at 02:27

0

Dear clickbait ha ck “ journalist” that wrote this garbage article: You know how I know you don’t know wtf you’re talking about: you’ve never driven an mr2 or a true mid engined car. The driving dynamics of an extra 300- 350 lbs in front of you vs the driving dynamics of the same 350 lbs behind you is fucking unmistakable. I owned a 91 and a 93 mr2. You did NOT fuck with that car when you were mid corner at anything close to the limit, especially in the rain . It would snap oversteer like a 911. Front, mid and rear engined cars are labels relative to the orientation of the engine to the driver . “Front mid” is merley a way to the discribe position of the engine relative to the front and rear axles regaedless of where the driver is located .

bhtooefr > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 07/11/2019 at 07:24

0

Um...

For this, I’m going to ignore V6s, except for VW/Audi (who use VR6s in transverse FWD applications, which generally package like a short inline 6).

All of Volkswagen/Audi ’s transverse FWD cars are now rear exhaust.

Mini uses the BMW modular engine family, which is rear exhaust.

Most of the engines in Nissan’s FWD cars are rear exhaust. I think the CR engine is the last front exhaust holdout, and that’s barely in anything any more (and nothing that we get in the US).

Honda’s an odd on e, but they do still use a lot of front exhaust . They AFAIK don’t do the whole reverse rotation thing any more, but they do flip the intake/exhaust orientation within an engine family. Turbos are usually front exhaust, NA engines are a mixed bag - stuff that goes into Fits is rear exhaust, the K-series NA engines are rear exhaust, everything else is front exhaust.

Toyota... KR (you won’t encounter it in the US) is front exhaust, NZ is rear exhaust, NR (its replacement in some markets) is front exhaust except when turbocharged. ZR is rear exhaust (I own a 2ZR-FXE, I can confirm this on my actual engine), M20A (replacing it in some applications) is rear exhaust . AR is front exhaust, A25A (replacing AR) is rear exhaust.

SkyActiv-G is rear exhaust, as is SkyActiv-D.

Looks like you’re right about GM, at least, everything they do is front exhaust.

Ford... Fox (1.0 3-cyl ) is front exhaust, Dragon (1.5 3-cyl) is rear exhaust, Sigma (1.2 -1.7 4-cyl ) is rear exhaust, Mazda L (which Mazda doesn’t even use any more, 2.0-2.5 4-cyl in the Ford applications) is rear exhaust, the Twin Scroll 2.0 EcoBoost is rear exhaust.

Why are we talking about Plymouth in 2019? Dodge ’s one transverse FWD 4-cylinder vehicle , the Journey, is front exhaust, I’ll give you that. Chrysler’s only transverse FWD vehicle is all V6 all the time.

Looks like Volvo Engine Architecture is rear exhaust.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > bhtooefr 07/11/2019 at 10:00

0

Ok, I stand corrected on the exhaust orientation of the cylinder heads. Good to know, in an academic sense.

Still wonder why the eng ine mass in a transverse FWD car isn’t a lever behind the front axle line, inside the wheelbase, rather than in front of it as it usually is. Not only for chassis geometry, but the slope of the hood could be better for aero , and pedestrian crash test regs that require empty volume under the hood for a crumple zone could also be affected by having the cylinder head slightly behind the wheel centers, rather than slightly in front of them.

And if there are so many variations of transverse drivetrain packages... it still irks me that none of those transverse drivetrains get mounted behind the driver’s seat anymore, but that is another subject.

Not that FWD chassis geometry matters that much to me I a real sense . I have only owned one transverse FWD car in the ~ 25 years I have been driving, and don’t plan on doing it again anytime soon. (a new mid-engine affordable transverse car, I would very much consider as soon as it arrives.)

kanadanmajava1 > way2blu does a rev update 07/11/2019 at 10:19

0

If we only classify them only as front/ mid/rear engined , you are correct. But couple of other definitions have been thought up. I don’t think that they are very official though .

Rkwjunior > way2blu does a rev update 07/11/2019 at 11:45

0

Big surprise, the new Supra is barely a Supra. This has been the problem since they released it. Z4/ mr2/ Supra. Great stuff Toyota

Mk5sux > way2blu does a rev update 07/11/2019 at 15:37

0

Sould have named it the MR2 then so it wouldn't tarnish the Supra's reputation

RedPir8Roberts > way2blu does a rev update 07/11/2019 at 17:40

0

Don’t have an opinion on the front-mid kerfuffle, but damn the LC500 looks amazeballs in that color. I have a feeling that the styling, which I like a lot, will be very dated and of its time (now) in a couple of years. When the price dips enough that they start showing up in second-tier used car lots, I fear they will be victimized with awful metalflake paint jobs and possibly even larger wheels. Then when you’re in a gorgeous blue LC and see a pimped out one, you’ll have to try to avoid eye contact with the other driver and pray the other drivers around you don’t notice you’re driving the “same” car.  Still, I wonder what the running costs on these will be out of warranty, if it’ll be ruinous like on AMGs or Toyota-like.